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Sharing a Page from Lady Lawyer Diaries | Kendyl Hanks & Kristen LaFreniere

April 28, 2020 | by D. Todd Smith

While women still hold the minority of positions in law firms and still experience bias and discrimination in a world dominated by older, white men, voices of resistance are gradually on the rise, especially on social media. The handle #LadyLawyerDiaries is a perfect example of how this happens on Twitter, one of the biggest and most influential platforms for social networking. With content ranging from sharing the successes of women lawyers to horror stories of gender discrimination and abuse, the handle has become a platform for women in the profession to celebrate and support each other. Joining Todd Smith and Jody Sanders in this episode are two active influencers in this space, Kendyl Hanks and Kristen LaFreniere. Kendyl and Kristen talk about the importance of broadcasting the voices of women and other underrepresented groups in the legal profession. Kendyl and Kristen see hope for change, with more women and empathetic men speaking out against gender bias and discrimination and calling for greater diversity in the law.

Listen to the podcast here:

Sharing a Page from Lady Lawyer Diaries | Kendyl Hanks & Kristen LaFreniere

We have Kendyl Hanks and Kristen LaFreniere, otherwise known as KVP. We have them both on to join us to talk about several topics. Ladies, the way that I got to know both of you was through Twitter. Both of you have a big presence there. We’re going to talk about that a lot, but for those of us that don’t follow you on Twitter, can you tell us a little bit about your background, each of you? How did you come to be? Where are you in your career? What are you doing?

Kristen and I have done this before together. She’s probably going to know some of the same stories. I got dragged to Twitter kicking and screaming. I was not a fan of social media. I’m not on Facebook. Other social media platforms are limited. I joined Twitter because I was doing a presentation for the American Bar Association Business Law Section up in Washington DC, a panel on the US Supreme Court. That year we had Neal Katyal or Adam Liptak, but Bloomberg was there covering a 2.5-hour panel. As soon as I got out, one of my partners said, “Did you see Bloomberg has live-Tweeted your whole panel?” I was like, “Now I have to get on Twitter.”

I got on Twitter. I responded to a couple, “Thanks, this is great. It was great to see everybody,” and all of a sudden, there were all these people I knew from appellate practice in New York and in Texas. We’ve all seen that Texas appellate lawyers have quite a presence on Twitter and appellate Twitter in particular. It kind of just went from there. I’m glad that I ended up getting drug into Twitter, but it certainly was not necessarily voluntary.

What about you, Kristen? Tell us your Twitter story.

I got on Twitter quite a while ago when I was still in undergrad and did a lot with organizations and political and otherwise getting people involved in live-tweeting and things like that of events. When I decided to go to law school and started plugging in with other lawyers, I’m the first lawyer in my family. I had to reach out to people and try to find mentors and such. Twitter became that for me. Particularly in the second year of law school, when I started getting interested in appellate practice, there were already many appellate lawyers on Twitter that would give advice or offer to look at moots. They helped me with even moot court competitions and such. It was a seamless transition from law school into appellate practice for me. It’s great that Texas, the legion that we seem to have of many of our appellate lawyers, but also across the nation, people who are willing to chime in and help and be that resource is unique.

Kristen, you spent a year working for the ultimate appellate Tweeter himself, Don Willett, when he was on the Supreme Court.

I did. I tell people that I think that’s part of how I got the job, both as his intern and postgrad law clerk, was because I already had a Twitter and I liked all of his dad jokes. I don’t know how true that is.

Kendyl, I know you’re in Austin now, but you were in New York originally. Is that where you started your practice?

I actually started my practice in Austin in 2001. It’s a time that feels familiar because it was a huge downturn, tumultuous time in the profession. I practiced here for two years, went to Dallas for two years, was in New York for seven, and then I came back home. Most of my family is here. It was many years ago.

You’ve been back home in Austin for as long as you were in New York. That’s got to feel good.

It does. Time flies.

Kristen, you’re back in your hometown of Lubbock, is that right?

I was raised here and then spent a year in Austin working for then-Justice Willett and then came home to practice.

Ladies, one of the many reasons we asked you all to be on here is there’s the @LadyLawyerDiary’s Twitter platform has gotten a lot of news and you guys have become a great voice for women practicing law both in appeals and out of appeals. Todd and I recognize the limits of our perspectives here. We’re both two boring people who do appellate law and nobody wants to hear from us. We wanted to give you all a platform to talk about.

That’s a great point that Jody made. Let’s face it, he and I, you can’t get any more white male than the two of us. If you want to add an old white male to the mix, I qualify as that. Certainly, having seen what you all are doing on Twitter, I don’t want to say enjoy reading the Lady Lawyer Diary stuff because I have to say, I feel some large pangs of old white guy guilt whenever I read that stuff. Frankly, a lot of it is flat shocking to me that people behave that way in this world. For those who aren’t familiar, I probably ought to preface that comment by saying that some of what that hashtag involves, perhaps most of it is tales. Almost horror stories from the woman’s perspective of what it’s like to be a practicing attorney in a world that’s dominated by middle-aged or largely older white males. Is that an accurate assessment?

I think it is.

TALP 9 | Lady Lawyer Diaries
Lady Lawyer Diaries: More than just a collection of horror stories, the #LadyLawyerDiaries handle is a positive avenue to broadcast the things female attorneys are doing.

I think that’s at least how it started as a way to bring together. One thing I would add though, is that we do enjoy using the hashtag as a way to let people know they can be heard. Also, as a way of supporting and encouraging other ladies, lady lawyers, and lady professionals in a way that gives kudos to their accolades or their professional accomplishments. It’s not just a negative thing and horror stories. It’s a positive avenue for us to be able to broadcast good things that lady lawyers are doing. A good chunk of, at least maybe at the beginning and even maybe still now is. What I was asked when I walked into the courtroom and I’m the only person who was asked that, I wonder what’s different about me than everybody else in the courtroom. Well what do you know, it’s that I was the only woman.

I don’t mean to minimize the positives that come out a bit aside from supporting each other through some rather difficult situations. It is clear that there is a big mentorship angle that’s being played out in that hashtag and all the discussions. I mean that the things that stuck out and bothered me were the stories that came out of the things that you’d like you described, Kristen, where it was obvious that the reason why the person in the room was being treated differently was because she happened to be female. Do you find being a younger female lawyer that you are treated differently than perhaps even a more seasoned female attorney?

I think that’s probably true. Certainly, there are obstacles to being a female. Although maybe it depends even on the region, some of that is obviated and people work on it. I do think there’s probably a little bit more as well towards a young woman. Someone who even often looks younger than your age or perhaps you’re petite or whatever it is that could be a physical characteristic of a younger lady lawyer can be treated. Some of it is obvious sexism and people who are purposefully being misogynistic, but most of it’s not. Most of it is an unconscious bias of, “You’re just being the Southern gentleman. It’s okay if I call you darling and everybody else, mister.” It may not be intended to be demeaning, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not. Some things you have to learn to brush off because it doesn’t help your client and you’ve got to move on, which is no different than if you have an obnoxious opposing counsel or an unreasonable judge regardless of whether, you know, what your gender or your age. Sometimes you have to deal with being treated unreasonably because that’s what’s best for your client. There probably are a few more hurdles to jump when you’re a young woman or a lady lawyer.

Todd, one of the things you mentioned is that you were surprised by some of the stories that you heard through Lady Lawyer Diaries. That connects to the reason and the way that we set up the handle. The hashtag, which was first used by Rachel Gurvich, a law professor, former big law, talented woman lawyer and we were all using it. It started to balloon. One of the things that we noticed was, most of us, as Kristen and I certainly Tweet under our names, we’re not anonymous. A lot of the women colleagues that we work with and talk to and who we had interacted with on Twitter also did the same or they were semi-public.

What we noticed is there were huge conversations going on offline because people were worried about information being attributed to them. We were hearing war stories and sharing experiences, but we couldn’t share it on the platform out of concern for protecting people’s anonymity. Lady Lawyer Diaries, we set it up as an anonymous handle. Kristen and I have been associated with it from the beginning, so as Jamie Santos and Rachel, a number of others. There are some others who were involved who aren’t publicly associated but who help us in the background. It gives us the ability to create a platform for people to reach out to us privately and share those experiences. We’ve been able to get those stories out in a way that a lot of people are hearing some of this stuff for the first time. Women are terrified to speak about those things publicly.

As one of the people who administer the handle, we get private messages that are sometimes so concerning that we encourage the people who reached out not to speak about it publicly. We assist them in making the right connections to either law enforcement or to a proper reporting agency. As bad as some of the stories you’ve heard on Lady Lawyer Diaries, I assure you there are worse and they’re not uncommon.

The thing that is horrifying about all of it is how frequently they happen. Particularly seeing the ones where people publicly on social media, some of the things that they post in response to some of these things are shocking. Under their names, the attitudes that people have out there in the world. It always amazes me and not in a good way.

We’re used to it, like the Hysterical Lady brand. We made mugs out of that. That’s the great thing about Twitter that I never expected. This is how I met Kristen. Kristen and I have become good friends. I can say the same about a lot of other women lawyers frankly, not even in this country, but in other countries. There is a bonding experience when women share their stories and realize how not alone they are. I’ve been practicing for 20 years and I will say that it’s only the last couple with this experience that, I’ve heard stories here and there and, “This thing has happened to me before.”

I don’t think I even appreciated how prevalent and how universal these experiences were. You would believe the messages we get on DMs, and Twitter, and pictures that we get, it’s astonishing. That is not a unique experience but women are trained not to talk about those things. The consequence of that is that these things happen but because people are discouraged from talking about it, at least historically, very little gets done because it’s treated like it doesn’t happen that often. That’s changing and I think that’s a good thing.

It seems like timing-wise, this has gone well to time itself at the same time as the #MeToo movement. Nationally, even internationally, there are a lot more people encouraging women to speak out and giving them credibility when they come forward with those accounts. It seems like this is a good thing to be able to build off of that, too.

Our handle and hashtag, in particular, have been able to find a lot more allies because of the #MeToo Movement. Find people who are willing to talk, find allies who are willing to back those up and hear those stories. One of the best things and kind of strange, I suppose, because of how a lot of people see social media and Twitter as, “I’m going to put something out there and I’ll feel better because I put it out into the internet.” This particular community has become, “We’re going to listen to your story.” This is a place where you can speak. You feel better because you put it out there, but then you’re also going to get that backup and encouragement in a way that a lot of times, social media doesn’t give you the ability to do.

That’s something encouraging, which I think has also helped us move from not always those war stories, but also allowing us to be able to grow as a community of, “Let’s also broadcast each other’s accomplishments.” Because here, we now have this platform where we can do that in a way that a lot of our male colleagues feel free to do themselves. For whatever reason, often female professionals do not. It’s easier for other people to share those things. It’s given us the ability to be that platform, which is encouraging the use of social media, which is not a sentence that is often said.

I’ve always said from personal experience that the group of people that’s related to appellate Twitter, we’re lucky to have that little corner of Twitter because that’s not the norm for Twitter users to find a small, supportive group that wants to listen to one another. Another thing that I’ve seen going on is you guys are, and I mean this more collectively, not just the two of you, but you are engaging in some systemic change. There were a lot of talks, particularly with the things that went on in the federal judiciary and then trying to rewrite the rules. I know a lot of people associated with you all, with Twitter and all that had a lot of input on some of those things and lots of opinions. It seems like that may have helped influence some of the debates and discussions around that.

There are some remarkable women leaders on Twitter who are approaching complicated and difficult issues in productive ways. Jamie Santos, who is an appellate lawyer in Washington, she’s the one who testified at the Senate judiciary committee hearing concerning revision to the rules regarding sexual harassment and reporting. Everything from law students to women lawyers who have been practicing for 25, 30 years. It is a remarkable cross-section of women lawyers from around the country who are openly tackling incredibly difficult issues that, frankly, earlier in my career, it was like, “Please don’t rock the boat. Please don’t make things complicated.” Even when that was said with the best of intention, it’s an insidious thing because those experiences and patterns get repeated and they get embedded in a culture.

This ability to publicly talk about it, and frankly, the fact that our firms support that. I don’t believe for one instance that everybody who reads my Twitter feed is thrilled to agree with everything I say. That’s totally fine. It’s a big deal that the people we work with professionally support those voices because the chilling of voices in the interest of not rocking the boat is part of the problem. What are some of the other groups, Kristen? There are @MeTooMVMT and @USCourts. There’s @StrictScrutiny, which is a group of amazing women who talk about the US Supreme Court, but it’s not just about that. They’re also talking about issues that affect women and women in the appellate practice, which is fantastic.

Women who know law, there’s some groups that are quick, we get in trouble for this all the time, people get upset when we point out nanos, but we do. All of us have been the one woman on a panel of six men and we’ve all been to panels that have all been men with no lawyers of color. In this modern practice, there’s no excuse for it anymore. I think that the efforts, not of just us, but of a lot of lawyers that, a lot of groups who are outspoken about it, the efforts to change people’s mindset from a passive mindset, “I was invited. I didn’t have any control over it. There wasn’t anything I could do,” to an active mindset of, “If I’m going to participate in something, I’m going to expect it to reflect the diversity that is important to me.”

TALP 9 | Lady Lawyer Diaries
Lady Lawyer Diaries: Because people rarely talk about the negative experiences of women lawyers, very little gets done because it’s treated like it doesn’t happen that often.

I’ve seen guys on social media say, “I was invited to this panel. It was a great panel, some interesting people. I said, ‘I’m not going to participate unless I see diversity on this panel.’” That’s the kind of change that needs to come. It can’t just come from women. It has to come from law firms, clients, colleagues, men, and white men. Those power structures, now that we’re starting to see more buy into the notion that diversity is important culturally, but it’s also important for our clients, for our firms, and the way we practice law. There’s still so much further to go. The pay gap is insane for women. We still have small numbers in terms of firm leaderships nationally and equity partners for lawyers of color and women. I would like to think we’re part of a positive change. Kristen, you’re still relatively new to this. What do you think about all this?

One of the biggest things that I saw, maybe coming into it as a law student in the community growing as I joined the practice, but having met many of you, even Jody, you and I met I think, when I was still in law school. Many of those becoming colleagues let me have a little bit of a better viewpoint. I’m lucky in that I’m in a smaller firm that values what I’m doing and supports that, but I’m still the only female at my firm. Even with my colleagues who are very meticulous and make sure that they stay on top of stuff, they’re still, because it’s such an unconscious bias that permeates our society. Even when people are trying to stay on top of stuff, there are still things that you pull people aside and say, “You can’t say stuff like that,” or, “This is how that sounded.”

Let’s repeat that back and make you realize how that sounded. Let’s not say that again. That’s from people who are working at it. We were all working on it and one of the most positive things for me is that this little microcosm of lady lawyers or appellate Twitter. A lady lawyer within appellate Twitter is allowing me to see, these are the types of unconscious biases that affect me. What are mine, that affect that next circle? What’s that next circle of lawyers of color, women of color, or whatever that next thing is? That helped me in that people then will private message me and say, “I saw you say this thing. I don’t think he meant it wrong, but here’s how that felt like a woman of color.” I can learn and then we can treat that as a learning experience.

I think it’s particularly helpful outside of the lens of lady lawyers or anything of that. We tend to get in our own echo chambers whether we’re talking politically, our own friends, our family or whatever that reason is. Because of that, it can feel isolating. If you feel like you’re the only one who’s experiencing that thing that’s true about what we’ve been talking about. That’s true about imposter syndrome that all of us probably experience in our jobs or any professional experiences or any young person or older person. This is my new example of how that helps that imposter syndrome that everybody has.

That’s one of the reasons that it has had such a wide effect outside of just Texas Lady Lawyers or appellate lawyers in Texas because everybody sees that community and realizes, “I’m not the only one that’s happening to.” You have such a smarter, larger, broader, way of using this social media platform in a way to realize you’re not alone. As naive as possibly that sounds, sometimes knowing, you’re not the only one who’s experienced that thing. It’s too bad both of us have, but at least you’re not alone. That’s true across a lot of different variables. This is a good example of how that happened.

Just to echo what she just said, a phrase popped into my head and I don’t know if I’ve ever used it before, but I’ve certainly thought about it a lot. There is empowerment in community. There are a lot of things about law practice that impede community. We have bar organizations and all that stuff and that’s great. We have law firms where we all go and work. Within law firms, we have practice groups where we spend most of our time with. One of the things social media does is that it blows right past those geographic practice community barriers and creates a whole new community. Appellate Twitter is like that too. I don’t know if something like that ever would have been possible before.

Even having been involved in the leadership of the American Bar Association, those communities were limited to people who are real bar people, who’re going to the meetings across the country and stuff. That in itself, is an impediment. There are real opportunities that are still being explored and there’s a lot more that we want to do. We get busy. It’s hard to keep up with the handle, particularly that we’ve got families, lives and practices, so we’re constantly thinking about how we continue to grow this community in a way that I don’t even know how to describe. How do you keep up with 10,000 women from around the country? It’s a remarkable, wonderful thing and it’s a new horizon and I love it, but that empowerment has been something that I don’t think I can articulate what a difference it’s made for me in my personal life and my professional life.

When it all started, you probably couldn’t have imagined that this would be where it would go. Twitter is a unique medium for this. If you think about the other media that are out there, it’s hard to imagine something like this developing in, like, a Facebook page, a LinkedIn group, or something like that. Twitter is accessible and easy to get in and out of. In terms of not only the mentorship aspect for the women that participate in this, you have an impact because all of the names that you rattled off, Kendyl, I’ve seen all those names show up in my Twitter feed. I’ll sometimes dig deeper and say, “I don’t know this person personally, but someone I know is talking about them or having a conversation with them and it looks interesting.”

I’ll delve into it a little deeper. That’s usually when I get, and I find the things that I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this really happened.” That’s not always the fire that lights a conversation within that group. Because of these activities, the conversations build on each other and permeate. Before you know it, you’re reaching people that maybe weren’t the original intended audience for these discussions. It’s having an impact because me, here in Austin, not knowing Rachel, Jamie, or Alyssa personally, I certainly have an appreciation for who they are. A better idea than I ever would have before for issues that they have had to deal with as female lawyers. It’s far-reaching in a way that probably wouldn’t have been possible 10 years ago.

I love hearing that. The way we think about the handle and what it accomplishes has evolved. Part of that is understanding that our audience is not just the women who actively participate in the handle. Our audience is law firms and clients. It’s you guys because we have these conversations offline. We know what’s going on. The ability to use this platform in a safe way for women to share their stories in a public forum so that people hear these stories. People see how many women share those experiences. Frankly, the crazy trolls who come after women on our handle. Rarely do we block those. The reason for that is because it is important for people to see the things that women deal with in this practice and in social media.

Some wackadoodle guy from somewhere comes after some of the women in our community or joins into a conversation in a toxic way with Lady Lawyer Diaries or something like that. That is important for you guys to see because that’s the stuff that normally happens over email, private conversations or in a meeting. People don’t realize that this is the stuff that we deal with regularly. There is value in that. As frustrating as it can sometimes be.

It exposes the systemic level and some of the systemic problems that give rise to these things. You’re always going to have people who are jerks and you’re going to have judges who behave badly, law partners who misbehave. When you start to see it on that level aggregated, you can see where the flaws in the system are that need to be fixed, that allows this type of thing to occur with the frequency and geographic variation that it does.

One of the things that we wanted to ask you about was what can lawyers, judges, or bar associations do to make practice better for women and for law students? Are there any particular educational strategies? Is there not a silver bullet is what I would ask?

I don’t if there’s a silver bullet. There’s a lot of resources out there that frankly, Twitter is sometimes a good resource for. Bar associations, local or otherwise, would do well. We see across the board nationally is something Kendyl mentioned is ensuring that you’re working on diversity at panels. Even the topics of panels and mindfulness, I’ve seen several over the last few months in the last couple of years, especially, that are on, “Let’s talk about implicit and unconscious biases in the legal community. Let’s have a frank discussion about those. Let’s do what you all are doing on a little bit of a broader scale, on lots of different types of topics, be that racial, gender, or any of the above.”

That’s something that’s helpful. Law students and law school-wise, I’m still plugged into Texas Tech and do a lot with them. It’s always that one angle that could be such a great resource to use the law students who have a lot of great ideas about this or they’re seeing things and experiencing things differently than even those of us who are quickly out of law school. It’s a different perspective that we often don’t tap that resource with. They have up-to-date information and ideas. We should be utilizing them as bar associations, not just inviting them but inviting them to speak. Also, inviting them to help with programming and plugging into, also, be it law review, CLE, or whatever, us plugging into that law school-wise as well.

Because often those diversity panels or those free CLEs or perhaps conferences that law reviews and such will put on for their students are more inclusive, more diverse, and more up-to-date topics and our local bar membership could benefit from those. They put a lot into it and they have a lot at stake. More communication, as lib as that can sound, there’s a lot of resources out there. We need to connect A with B in a lot of situations. It’s less coming up with new topics and more figuring out that these people are there to talk about it, we just need to give them a microphone.

TALP 9 | Lady Lawyer Diaries
Lady Lawyer Diaries: There are some remarkable women leaders on Twitter who are approaching complicated and difficult issues in very productive ways.

I agree there’s no silver bullet. These are ingrained cultural things about the way women are perceived in society and women in power are perceived. What I was talking about earlier, being an active participant in discussions about advocacy for diversity, racial diversity, gender diversity, sexual orientation, political diversity frankly. Kristen and I, there are a lot of things we don’t agree on but there are lots of more important things that we do agree on. Panels ask about diversity, who’s going to be on the panel? Most of the men I know, who I know well, are kind of embarrassed when they sit down on a panel of six white men. There’s no excuse for that anymore.

Be proactive about that. One of the things we see a lot in law firms and I know some women in-house and in academia experienced this as well. Don’t fill your diversity committees with women and minorities. Don’t put them in the supporting role. Don’t make them responsible entirely for making diversity happen. Think about when they’re invited into power, committees or leadership. What is it that you’re asking them to do? Are you asking them to support the structure that is there? Are you asking them to be the ones that take notes literally or metaphorically? Are you asking them to be the one who’s going to be doing all the legwork to make the group look good? Because we see a lot of women and lawyers of color shuttled into those supporting roles.

Diversity has to be something that everyone who walks in the door has to appreciate that it’s not just important to diverse people. It’s important for every single person in the room. I think that means, whether it’s on social media, if it’s at lunch, if you see someone make a racist joke or a sexist joke. It may not feel like it’s directed at you, but it is directed at you if it’s something that you care about, so say something about it. There are a lot of trolls, 90% of it, this person is an idiot and it’s self-evident. Sometimes it goes much further beyond that.

We see the people on social media, the men who stand up and say, “That is not appropriate. That’s not okay and here’s why.” Because if you just have a chorus of women responding and explaining why something isn’t okay, then what you see are the secondary trolls, which are the ones who were like, “The coven is unleashed.” It can’t just be women’s voices. It can’t just be the voices of lawyers of color. It needs to be the whole of the community that if we care about it, all of us are speaking about it. I wouldn’t be afraid to speak up. It’s been a crazy year and we probably haven’t been as good at monitoring the regular chatter that’s going on with the Lady Lawyer Diaries handle. We try hard to pay attention to and publicly acknowledge and show gratitude for men who stand up for women in social media because we want to encourage that behavior. Because if it’s just us, then it’s just a women’s issue. I think that’s the thinking that needs to change.

You all have been gracious to spend this time with us. I could listen to you talk about this for much longer than we have available. It’s great to learn from the sources. I can read about it on Twitter, but this is way better. One of the things that we like to do is ask our guests to share a tip or a war story. I want to invite each of you to do that. It doesn’t have to be anything super personal because I know that it could be, I’m sure you have a lot that you could share. I figured we’d give bonus points if your war story related to appeals and something to do with the appellate. What do you think?

I would say probably the best that I have are the three appellate cases that I’ve picked up from appellate Twitter followers who have specifically sent clients. I’ve had people that I didn’t know, call the office and say, “Someone told me to #HireKVP for this appeal.” My favorite is that it all goes back to that community. I try to refer out clients that I can’t help to people and it’s easier to do locally with your local bar association but our, a special group of Texas appellate lawyers who can refer that out. With that, especially me as a young lawyer who always turns into, “Does anyone have a word document of a fifth circuit brief that you could send me that I can work off of for a forum?” You all are always great for that too.

I laugh because there are many stories, funny ones, good ones, scary ones. The best story I have to share is the one that we’ve already shared. In the very relatively few years that I’ve been on Twitter, some of these people have been on for decades. I have probably been on for 4 or 5. Among my closest friends are women and lawyers I’ve gotten to know through Twitter. I say it out loud and it sounds a little pitiful, but it’s not because these are not just friends on the platform. These are people I’ve gone on road trips with and visited in their homes. Two of us drove to Lubbock and visited Kristen, her mom, and her dog.

Everyone needs to be careful on social media. Everyone needs not to get rolled into too much vulnerability on social media about what you say to whom you say it. There are real genuine connections that we need there. Business relationships that Kristen was talking about. I’ve sent you clients, Kristen. I’ve gotten referrals because of my profile. A real community with real connections, real friendships. Right now, with what everything that’s going on in the universe, that’s a wonderful thing to have. I’m grateful.

It’s ironic that something like Twitter can lead to actual real-life human connection.

That’s how Todd and I started this show.

We’ve talked about Twitter a lot. Why don’t each of you give her your Twitter handles since we’ve gotten all this out here.

Mine’s @KVPTexas.

I’m @HanksKendyl, and there’s @LadyLawyerDiary.

Thank you both for being here. It’s been tremendous. Maybe we’ll have you back to report in a few years and we’ll have a bunch of cultural change to talk about.

Disclaimer: This transcript has not been proofread or edited to written-article standards. If you have any questions or see any discrepancies, please let us know by sending an email to

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